Why Brand Differentiation Matters More Than Growth with Barry Labov

A lot of podcasters say they want growth, but what they really want is fast proof that they were right to start. That pressure can turn a show into a pitch, or worse, into a numbers game that drains the joy out of creating. Carl sits down with Barry Labov, two-time Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year, brand strategist, speaker, and author of The Power of Differentiation, to talk about what actually builds a lasting podcast and a lasting business: purpose, patience, and trust.

Barry shares the true origin of his entrepreneurial journey, including the moment he quit his job on principle and immediately faced the double hit of losing income and losing housing. From there, we unpack resilience during recession conditions, why entrepreneurship can feel isolating, and how having the right support system changes everything. If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re the only one struggling, this conversation gives you a grounded, honest kind of hope.

We also get tactical about modern podcasting strategy and thought leadership marketing. Barry explains why podcasting is like being in a band: you create, test, refine, publish, and repeat, long before anyone “discovers” you. We talk about avoiding the “sell, sell, sell” tone, asking better questions instead of using static interview scripts, and repurposing content through newsletters, clips, and thoughtful one-to-one sharing. Then we tie it back to brand differentiation: discovering what’s already unique, naming it clearly, and winning hearts and minds before chasing market share.

Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s building something, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. What’s one thing about your work that you should never change?

Connect with Barry
LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-labov-6965241/
Website:  https://www.labov.com/
https://barrylabov.blogspot.com/
https://www.barrylabov.com/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Carl 0:04

Welcome to Communication Connection Community, the Podcasters Podcast. This podcast takes a deep dive into modern-day communication strategies in the podcasting space. We chat with interesting people who make the podcasting and speaking spaces exciting and vibrant. We also dive into the podcasting community with news, updates, latest trends and topics from this ever-evolving space. So strap in, it's going to be one amazing ride. Let's dive into today's episode. And my guest today is Barry Labov. He's a two-time Ernst and young entrepreneur of the year, a celebrated author, speaker, and brand strategist. With a core emphasis on differentiation, Barry advocates for leaders to unearth and champion their brand's distinctiveness to win market share and the hearts of the people who represent it. His book, The Power of Differentiation: Win Hearts, Minds, and Market Share, embodies this philosophy. As the founder of Labove, a renowned marketing training firm serving blue chip clients, Barry is renowned for his infectious energy, creativity, and uplifting message. He is a sought-after podcast guest. He is a podcast host. We are so thrilled he's joining us today. Barry, welcome to the podcast.

Lance 1:26

Thank you, Carl. I'm excited about this. We've gotten to know each other, and I think we'll have a lot of fun today.

Carl 1:32

I'm so thrilled, my friend. You know, one of the things that I like to do for our listeners is bring on some experienced people, give them insights, but also give them, if I can say this word, a little bit of hope. Sometimes when you're an entrepreneur, it's a lonely world out there. It doesn't have to be. And people like yourself who have, you know, not only experience, but empathy and compassion for people and certainly the passion that you share in your business too, helps move people forward.

Lance 1:58

Well, thank you. I do think it is a lonely world as an entrepreneur. I don't want to get the violins out there and have it have the string section going there, but I do think it is. So I think if we can help each other, and I think sometimes what helps me when I talk to entrepreneurs is I realize, okay, I'm not alone in this. What I'm going through is actually kind of normal. Maybe I'm not as insane as I think I am.

Carl 2:21

I like that. Although there's certain coaches that I've worked with or spoken to over the years who have said, you know what, you have to be somewhat crazy to be a solopreneur, but I think that's part for the course.

The Accidental Start Of Entrepreneurship

Lance 2:31

Yeah, I agree with you.

Carl 2:33

So, what is it that led you into the world of entrepreneurship? What was the driving force?

Lance 2:39

Well, Carl, I didn't mean to do it. It happened and I didn't know how to get out of it.

Carl 2:45

It sounds like me. It sounds like the same.

Lance 2:47

Yeah, I didn't mean to. It's it was something that happened, and I almost apologize for it. But I was uh working at a recording studio as a jingle writer, and I had heard rumors that that company, the jingle company, was not paying the musicians for the jingles we were doing. I then confirmed it with the jingle musicians who were some of my best friends. And I thought, you know, I'll I'll go confront the leader of that company, and you know, I'll do that. So the morning I did that, and this was a pivotal moment in my life. My wife said to me, Well, do you think that, you know, you'll get in trouble, or do you think he'll admit that he's not paying these people? I said, Well, if he's dishonest, he probably won't admit it. So I said, I'm not worried about, but yeah, I'll do it. So I go in and I said, Hey, is it true that you're not paying our musicians? And he said, Yeah, I'm not paying them. I go, you just bought a brand new Porsche. You're not paying me. At the time, I was going without money because he was in money trouble. And I said, Okay, then I have to quit. And he said, Well, you cannot quit because you'll die without me. You'll starve to death. You can't amount to anything without me, Barry. And I said, Well, you know, I'd rather starve to death than work with a guy that's ripping people off. So he said, Okay. And I said, All right. And he said, now don't steal any of my clients. Why would you worry about that? But I said, I won't steal your clients. So I go home and my wife is crying. I didn't know why. I thought maybe somebody from the recording studio called her and I said, honey, what's going on? And she said, Oh, what a day. I said, What happened? And she said, Well, our landlord came in and he just got a divorce, and his wife is gonna move into our little apartment here in two weeks. So we lose our home. How was your day, honey? And I went, I said, Well, I quit my job. And she said, Wow, we're without a job and soon to be without a home. So that's how it all started. And I became an entrepreneur. I did jingles and eventually moved into marketing. That's how it all started. Didn't mean to do it, but it happened.

Carl 4:49

Now, was this at a time when it seemed easier than it is today? Or do you feel today it's easier than it was when you were going through that back then?

Lance 5:00

Oh, I'll give you a strong answer. No, it was far worse than I was in the middle of dealing with a nationwide recession. And the largest employer in my city of Fort Wayne, Indiana had just announced it was laying off everybody and moving. So it was like Death Valley days when I started my own business. It was horrible. Every day I woke up, had no momentum, had to keep going, going, going, going, going, going, go to sleep exhausted, wake up the next day, rinse and repeat. It was great for me. It made me a better person. It focused me on doing things that were high enough quality that I didn't need to just depend on my local region or city to buy from me. I started to focus on getting business with companies like Disney and a Goodyear tire company, other companies like that.

Carl 5:51

Speaking of resilience, though, like my goodness, like at a time when not only has the rug been pulled out from under you with your landlord, you've left a job, the community you're in is in a tumultuous place, recession, horrible times. Well, what better time to be an entrepreneur?

Lance 6:10

You know, I have to say, I look at things pretty positively, and I could not give you one really great reason other than it made me better, but it was a very challenging time. I'll tell you one thing. You've got to have a wife, in my case, you gotta have a wife who believes in you and is so dedicated that she's not beating you up every day after you've beaten yourself up all day long. So I have that and I've been very grateful.

Podcasting As A Business Craft

Carl 6:37

I think that's one of the challenges. And I'm glad you mentioned that because it sometimes does come across our agency here, you know, working with individuals, is because they're investing not only time, but they're investing dollars into a solid podcast that we're putting out for them. Sometimes your spouse doesn't isn't quite on board or they don't understand the why behind it. It's the same, I'm gathering it's the same in business. I have a very supportive spouse, understands that you know what, some days are diamonds and some days are absolutely resembles a toilet flushing. Let's just put it that way. So if you don't have that support, it's just going to be a bigger struggle, be it in business, be it a podcast, or be it both. I attune, yeah, and you're a podcaster and you're also a guest, you've been a guest on well over a hundred shows. I attune a podcasting to being no different really than a business.

Setting A Purpose Bigger Than Sales

Lance 7:26

I think it's the same thing. One thing for me with podcasting is it brings me back to my old days as a rock and roll musician because I would write some songs, I'd rehearse them with the guys in the band, we go out and play them, we check them out, we go back into the garage and play again, we'd then record them, we then send them out to record companies to see if they had interest. Well, I'm doing the same thing now. I'm coming up with some ideas for a podcast, inviting people to come on. We are recording it. We are then editing it, we are then sending those out to the various social media channels. And, you know, we've gotten some very good results because of the podcast in my book. We've had a number of the top universities in the world, like Cambridge, Carnegie, Mellon, Stanford, Columbia reach out and say, Can I have a copy of your book? I've talked to a few people who have interest in hiring my company in different parts of the world. One was an Australian company, you know, a couple have been in the UK, and then a few in the United States. So it is kind of the same process. You go out, you try it, you work on it, you refine it, you get feedback. But what you have to do, keep going. So if you look back at my old man rock and roll era, you had people like Bob Seeger and you have people like, you know, Crosby Stills and Nash and all these people. Well, they did not just play for a few weeks and become famous. I mean, Bob Seeger was playing in nightclubs for 10 years before he was so-called discovered. And I think that's what we have to look at with podcasts. We have to realize that if we're really out there to do something, and I'll give one suggestion to everybody, by the way, too. We're really out there to do something and we want to make a difference. We're gonna have to keep going at it. And my thing is early on, I talked to somebody and he said, Okay, what's your goal with this book, this podcast? And I said, Well, I don't know. I got to really think about that. And he says, it's gotta be more than just selling some books. And I said, you know what? I want to inspire over one million people with my message. Whether that means I sell 10 books or a thousand books, I don't care. That doesn't matter. If I can influence a million people, I've made an impact. Well, all of a sudden, this is my suggestion to the audience. You have a goal that's bigger than yourself. You know, your goal is bigger than, hey, I want to have 10 more sales this week. Well, okay, you can force your friends to buy your book. But if your goal is inspiring people about a positive message worldwide, then you know what? That kind of makes you feel good. And maybe you can help a few people out there. So that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I'm I'm not giving up. I'm gonna keep going.

Carl 10:16

And I love that response. I think that you're right. I think that it's very easy for us to not know our why. And, you know, Simon Sinek obviously talks about this all the time, you know, what's your why? But we really have to look at it from a why are we doing this? And there are a number of discussions that I have with people coming into the space when I say, so what's your podcast going to be about? And what's your goal? What's the outcome? What is it you're hoping to achieve? Is it business? Is it hobby? Is it, you know, and understanding that can certainly, and maybe your bigger mission, you know, what is that that's that's going to be? The other thing that you mentioned that I just want to piggyback on is the myth that podcasting will make you an overnight success and paralleling that with the music world. And I remember hearing a um here I am in Canada, there's a country music artist who's very successful in recent years. And he said, after it was either a radio host or one of his fans or somebody like that, said something to him about, oh, you're such a success, he's like, Yeah, well, that success journey was 20 years, so it's a 20-year overnight success. Same with podcasting. If you just launch six or eight episodes or you just go on eight shows, you'll get the result of being on six or eight shows. You know, Bob Seeger, if he only played eight gigs, wouldn't be the Bob Seeger he is today.

Stop Selling And Start Serving

Lance 11:28

No, you're right. And I really want to challenge everybody in the audience to realize that, hey, by the way, it's not a secret. If all you're trying to do is grab a customer or to sell yourself on your podcast, guess what? Everybody can hear it, everybody can feel it, and they're gonna go, okay, this is just the same line from this guy or this gal over and over. I don't even want to listen to this crap. Okay. And my opinion is on my podcast, which is called Difference Talks, so it's Difference Talks. I don't sell myself. I mean, we have like a little intro in a middle part that tells who we are, but I'm not selling myself in my interviews whatsoever. And I will not. I am focusing on the unique individual so that he or she can share their story and inspire people. And if it helps my guest, I love it. I think it's awesome. If it ends up somebody says, hey, I'll I'll work with Barry's group, that's great. What I like is when I have friends and I have strangers reach out to me and say, golly, I love that one podcast with so-and-so. I love that you did blah, blah, blah. You know, I had uh Chuck Surak, who is the founder of Sweetwater Music, which is the world's largest music retailer. I had him on. I've known him for years, and I interviewed him, and one of his longtime employees emailed me. He said, I can't believe what you got out of Chuck here. He said, That was the most sincere, heartfelt discussion with Chuck that I've ever heard. And I worked with him for 30 years. Well, to me, that's a success. Did I get business from it? No. And I think everybody in the audience, if you're gonna play the podcast game, you got to be out there to say, I have a purpose. I want to help people in this way, or I want to influence the way that people look at blank. That's what I want to do. And oh, by the way, if a byproduct is you get some business, great. But I'm just telling you, you can't give up, but you can't be selfish, and you also can't delude yourself that nobody knows that I'm trying to sell myself. Well, hey, if you try to sell yourself, it's gonna be pretty obvious.

Carl 13:37

Barry, I'm so glad you shared that because there are many people who will ask us, they'll say, Well, how do you monetize a podcast? And I'll say, Well, there are ways, but if you're only thinking on, to your example, if you're only thinking on the monetization, how do I make money from this? Then there's a lack of sincerity. Are you only pumping out content so you can make money from it? Or are you genuinely concerned, are you genuinely interested in helping people move their businesses, their lives, whatever it is forward, or even empower, as you said, you empower your guests. So there's many different ways to look at it. I think there's a huge learning there that we can all take from that is uh if there's an opportunity there for business, great. But if your messaging is for the right reasons, I've quite often had you know clients even say, I'll get one or two clients a year from my show. I don't position my content for them to necessarily happen. But it's the residual effect of I'm doing the right thing, I'm saying the right things, I'm inspiring, encouraging, enlightening, whatever it is. That's what's moving it forward. In your journey and experience in business, do you find that that seems to be where business in general is now? It's not just about the sale, it's about the relationship and the trust.

Better Interviews Without Scripted Questions

Lance 14:56

Yeah, it's about the relationship, it's about the confidence a person has that they can actually think that you have the right intent, which I think is important. You know, I I really see two extremes with podcast hosts that I think could be improved upon, and one we already talked about, which is sell, sell, sell, sell, sell yourself, which is useless. The opposite is, and I've seen some of this, is the host is really smart, really great in a particular line of business, and he or she doesn't want to go that direction, doesn't want to talk about those things, and doesn't even acknowledge that they have a business. And I've talked to a few of them, and I go, no, wait a minute, you have a marketing company, you're interviewing me on marketing, and the people who are listening to this don't even know you have a company. You know, I don't understand why you do it. He goes, Well, I don't want to come off and brag. It's not bragging. You do have a company, you do have a name, you do have a website, that's great. If people want to talk to you, great, but don't hide that. So I think I won't even call it a balance. I think it's common sense. If you really want to do a podcast that inspires others, then it should inspire you. And you should think, gosh, this is kind of interesting. You should bring people on that you think are interesting and you should ask them really, really deep questions, not just throw away questions. And at the same time, you can share your experience that you have regarding your area of expertise. But it's got to be sincere, it's got to be a conversation, it cannot be a transaction. Right, right.

Carl 16:32

100% agree there. One of the things that I like about our initial conversation before we hit record was, and this goes back to the piece that you were saying about just questions. One of the things that I liked was that, you know, you, and no surprise here given your background, but you were very comfortable just saying, let's hit record, let's have a conversation, let's see where this takes us. It must be, I'll use the word maddening, but it must be maybe not maddening, maybe just frustrating. When you're on a show and you're given the static questions of every guest has been asked these questions for this show, do you feel that it waters down not who you are, but what you're doing for that audience? If it's just the same questions in the same format?

Lance 17:12

I do. I think that each guest is a unique individual. So if you ask the exact same questions of every guest, you're not really doing your job because you're not going down the path that they're trying to lead you down. And I think that's really important. It's, you know, most of the time when I'm interviewing a guest, I start off with, you know, an outline of what I want and I don't follow it. Now, that is maddening to those around me too, because they're going, can he just follow the script? But sometimes it's like, you know, if I follow the script, it's not going to be interesting to me. Why would it be interesting to the audience? And I go down that script, but I also go, forget the script. I'm off the script, I'm off the charts, and I'm going over this area and I'm going to ask questions. And, you know, worst case scenario, you can always delete. I've had podcast guests. I had one just recently, and he started talking about a very highly confidential, actually national security-related thing. And he stopped. He said, Hold on, I shouldn't even talk about this. He said, I'm sorry. Can you delete this? I said, Yeah, we'll add, and we did. We edited it out. But I thought it was great because he was comfortable enough that it was two people talking and he just went down that path until he went, Oh crap, there's going to be, you know, a lot of people out there hearing this. I think that's the sign of a good interview where your interviewee is, you know, opening up. So I think you got to do it. I think that to me, it's no different than the music industry. You've got to keep going, going, going. And you cannot look at results after your first eight episodes or 12 episodes. The other thing I'll share as an entrepreneur is the way I look at a podcast is I am not going to chart the number of clients I have landed. I may chart the number of people who've reached out, the number of universities that have asked, the number of other people who have reached out, you know, maybe for a copy of the book or something. I'll look at that and I'll go, okay, that's interesting. I don't need 300 new clients. I don't want 7,000 new clients. If I get one new client and it's the right type of client, I'm going, that's great. If I get three, it's great. I don't want mass quantities of clients that I cannot serve without sacrificing the ones I have. So I look at it from that angle. I don't need a million clients. Now, some of the audience is trying to sell mass quantities of stuff. I'm not. I sell something, I sell marketing and training and strategic services that are very, very bespoke. They're very focused on one individual client at a time. So I'm not worried about 30 new clients.

Repurposing Podcast Content With Intent

Carl 19:54

And for those kinds of clients or for the types of services you provide, I'm assuming, and you know what they say about assuming, but I'm assuming you don't need a lot of clients based on the type of work that you do. So if you get one from your show, great. But you don't need the, it's not like the, if I can use this analogy, it's not like the, you know, the McDonald's of the world where you need to sell X number of hamburgers and shakes. You need one client, maybe two, you know, to add to your Rolodex of clients or connections or whatever every year, or you need to sell or move X number of books or have this many conversations with whatever it is. You don't need 10,000 of those from your show. And I think that's another misconception is the, oh my goodness, I need my, I need at least 20,000 listeners to my show because I need to convert at least you know 10% of them to clients. And it's just that we we get so wrapped up with numbers that don't even make sense. And and I like the other thing that you said when you were talking about some of the uh free-flowing content. I'll I'll come back to that in a minute. But you don't need those massive, massive numbers to have impact. You know, we have clients who have very simple yet very successful shows who have generated, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for themselves by getting those one or two clients a year from having a very simple, professionally produced, of course, but a very simple show that connects with the people who need to hear the individuals, their ideal audience, I guess you could say, who needs to hear that messaging at that time.

Lance 21:30

I think you got to be resourceful too. So another message I have for the audience is so many of the podcasters out there produce a podcast and then they put it out in social channels, they're done. Okay. I don't do that. I do more than that. So that's the minimum. We have a newsletter that we send out every two weeks. Well, we're including highlights from three or four of my guest spots and also the newest or latest podcasts that we're doing. For ourselves. So we're doing that. In addition to that, I have sent out podcasts to different prospects or clients and said, Hey, I just interviewed so and so. He's in a field very similar to yours. You might find this interesting. So I send it out. What we have to do is use that content, and as well as the shorts. If you're going to use little video briefs, things like that. Use those things. You've already put the time in. Use all the different fragments of the work you've done for it. You know, you got to think out of this one-dimensional box, which is, well, I'm going to go do this podcast. I'm going to try to sell myself and get people excited. Okay. Forget to sell yourself. Do a podcast that you think is meaningful and then be resourceful. Share it with people. Send out snippets of it. Put it in some of your emails to some of your prospects, some of your clients. Try to connect your clients with some of the podcast hosts. Connect podcast hosts with podcast hosts that you know or guests with other guests. You know, I've connected a lot of guests and a few hosts, and they go, What can I do to repay you? And I go, Nothing. I just thought it'd be a good connection for you guys. That's it. I mean, do those things and will they all come back to you? No, they will not all exactly come back to you, but you're doing the right thing. And it's easier to sleep at night. And I believe you will get results.

The Power Of Differentiation Explained

Carl 23:25

And I think what you're hitting on there too is it's being of service. And being of service doesn't mean, as we've already indicated on the show, that you don't need to sell. You don't need to pitch. It's not like, what do you need, Barry? If I give you this, if I do this for you, well, what what do you need? No, it's not like that. Wow. We could carry on this conversation forever, but I think there's justification to have you back another time to have you in as a guest because you have so much insight and experience. And I think we barely scratched the surface of the scratch, let alone anything else. I do want to give you an opportunity though to talk about the book a little bit because I know that this has just been released recently. So share me the insights of the book. What was it that um led to it being published?

Lance 24:05

The book is titled The Power of Differentiation. It is the number one marketing book on Kindle and Amazon. So that's great. It's done well. It's all about discovering, not trying to create, discovering what makes your brand, your product, your service unique, distinct. Because you have something. You have to discover what it is instead of trying to create a brand new thing that you think everybody's gonna buy. Be who and what you are. Once you do that, and this is what we detail in the book, you want to name it. You want to be able to express what it is, you want to identify those unique differentiators. And then the most exciting thing is in the process, when it's time to launch it, you share it and celebrate it with the most important people in the world. And that is your team, could be your employees, it could be family and friends, it could be dealers. If you have a dealer or distributor network, you share it, you celebrate it. The reason I wrote the book was I thought after all these years, there's so many interesting approaches to identifying and celebrating what you do that's unique to help increase your sales. Then COVID hit, and 50 million Americans quit their job in 2021 during COVID. And I thought, you know what? It's not just discovering differentiation to sell more, it's discovering the differentiation so that your employees feel they're doing something of significance. Because otherwise, they're just working at a typical place and they'll go down the street somewhere else for 25 cents more an hour. So the book's subtitle is Win W-I-N, Win Hearts, Minds, and Market Share. And it's in that order that you need to do it. Win the hearts and minds of your people, of your customers. Then you're going to get some market share. That's what it's all about.

Where To Get The Book And Connect

Carl 26:00

I love it. I love it. And certainly congratulations on that. And I appreciate the fact that you're sharing this with people and giving them the insights and the tools to be able to, you know, make a difference in their lives and the lives of people around them. Also, congratulations on the show and everything you've done in the podcasting space too, uh, you know, and your insights today have been absolutely phenomenal. The book and everything else where people can connect with you, berrylabove.com. Everything else is there?

Lance 26:28

Everything is there, barrylabov.com. You can get a free digital version of the book if you want to listen or watch or read. Um, if you want us to ship you a free copy of the book, you can let us know. You have to pay for shipping, of course, but we'll send that to you with an autograph. Let us know on that. And also you can reach out to me. There's an easy way to contact. And uh, I'll hear from people all over the world. They'll ask a few questions. And like I said, I'm always happy to connect with people and help them because it's all about inspiring a million people.

Carl 27:01

Yeah. And I'm so glad that you've inspired our audience today. Definitely do connect with Barry after today for sure, if for no other reason to get the book. And listen to the podcast as well. We'll make sure all those links are available in the show notes for you. Before I turn you loose, Barry, to either record another podcast episode, jump on a show, or help somebody else focus on positivity and moving the needle forward for themselves and business or their lives. I'll leave you with a final thought.

Lance 27:26

Realize that no matter whether you're a solopreneur or you're running a 50,000 employee company, that you are offering something already that has uniqueness to it. Discover what that is. Ask your customers, your employees, what should we not change? What are we doing that is so good you don't want me to change that? And start to identify that and name it and celebrate it with your entire enterprise. It will lead to more sales and market share.

Final Takeaways And Closing Thanks

Carl 27:58

I love it. And that's a great place to leave it, Barry. Barry Labov, thank you so much for being my guest today. Carl, thank you very much. And hey, thank you for being a part of the show today. So glad you could join us. Believe it or not, I can't work this magic by myself. So thanks to my amazing team, our audio engineer Dom Carillo, our sonic branding genius Kenton Dobrowolski, and the person who works the arms, all of our arms actually, our project manager and my trusty assistant, Julovell Tiongco, known to us here simply as July. If you like what you heard today, let us know. You can leave us a comment or review or even send us a voice note. And if you really liked it, we hope you'll share it with your friends and your colleagues. If you don't like what you heard today, well, please feel free to share it with your enemies. And if you know of someone who would make a great guest on the show, let us know about it. You can get in touch with us by going to our show notes where all of our connection points are there, including the links to our website, LinkedIn, and Facebook as well. And if you're ready to be a guest on podcasts, or even start your own show, let's have a conversation. We'll show you the simplest way to get into the podcasting space and rock it. Because after all, we're Podcast Solutions Made Simple. Catch again next time.