Human Centred Leadership For Podcasters

Podcasting used to reward consistency. Now it rewards leadership. When listeners ask for bonus content, green room conversations, meetups, and behind-the-scenes access, they are telling us they want more than a feed. They want a community, and community requires someone who can lead people with clarity and care.

Carl sits down with leadership expert and former Royal Canadian Air Force member Isabelle Fortin to unpack what’s changed and why so many workplaces still confuse management with leadership. We talk about the common trap of promoting the best salesperson or top performer into a leadership role without giving them real leadership skills, then calling it “training” when it is mostly time management and process. Isabel makes a sharp distinction: managers focus on getting the job done, while leaders take care of their people, set clear expectations, and create more leaders over time.

We also connect the dots directly to podcast growth and audience engagement. If you are building a podcast community, you need a clear vision, boundaries around what you will and will not share, and a willingness to empower others to bring their best ideas. We go deep on communication skills too: real communication is not just expressing your point of view, it is adapting to the other person’s language and worldview so they can come with you. And for hosts and guests alike, we cover fit, due diligence, and why the right “no” protects your brand.

Subscribe, share this with a fellow podcaster, and leave a review if it helped. What is one leadership skill you want to build next?

Connect with Isabelle:

Website:
https://www.againsttheordinary.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabellemfortin/

Transcript

Welcome And What We Explore

Carl 0:03

Welcome to Communication Connection Community, the Podcasters Podcast. This podcast takes a deep dive into modern-day communication strategies in the podcasting space. We chat with interesting people who make the podcasting and speaking spaces exciting and vibrant. We also dive into the podcasting community with news, updates, latest trends and topics from this ever-evolving space. It's going to be one amazing ride. Let's dive into today's episode.

Why Leadership Belongs In Podcasting

Carl 0:35

Leadership. I know what you're thinking. This is a podcast about podcasting. Why are we talking about leadership? There has been a huge shift in the podcasting space. And I'm not talking about just with content going from audio to audio and video now, and also a lot of people using transcription and being very mindful of SEO titles and SEO show notes. But there's been a huge shift with the fact that people want more. Used to be if you just had a podcast and you just released the show, it was good enough and people would follow you and everything would be great. Now people want more. People want the meetups, people want the green room conversations. They want all of that. And that's where leadership comes into play. And our guest is an expert when it comes to leadership. Isabelle Fortan. And this is what she has to say about leadership, by the way. Leadership used to be about command and control. It was sphere-based. Then it became about knowledge. Wome ever knew more was the leader. The future of leadership is human-centered. And we're going to talk about that today. She's a sought-after podcast host. She's played in the podcasting space. And there's a good chance when she's ready, she'll be getting back into it as a host as well. Isabelle, welcome to the podcast.

Isabelle Fortin 1:54

Thank you very much for having me, Carl. I'm happy to be here.

Air Force Lessons Meet Corporate Shock

Carl 1:58

I am so glad you are here. What is it when we talk about leadership? You have a journey. I don't want you to give me the full, you know, I was born and this happened, and when I was 15, and you don't have to get the full story, but you spent some time in the military and learned a lot about leadership. What were some of the key takeaways that you learned having been in the Royal Canadian Air Force?

Isabelle Fortin 2:19

The biggest clash, if I want to make a very long story extremely short, the biggest clash was when I left the military and I joined the corporate world. And I was dumbfounded by how little leadership training bosses and leaders and managers got. First job, you think it's this individual, and then you get to the second job, and you can go, huh, it's just more of the same, and the third job and the fourth job. And I was really truly shocked by that. They in corporate America, and it seems to still be this way, is they take the best sales rep or the best whatever accountant and they make it, they make that person in charge of that department. Well, being a good salesperson requires selling skills. Being a good leader requires leadership skills. And these two aren't the same. So in corporate America, people seem to confuse the two. And that's that's a problem.

The Real Difference Between Leader And Manager

Carl 3:18

Do you think that in the corporate world, part of the challenge is, especially today, I think we're seeing it now more than ever, or at least I've experienced it and seen it, that there's this shift, or maybe shift is the wrong word, but there's the verbiage that we're using. We talk about management like it's leadership. Do you think that's part of the part of the challenge?

Isabelle Fortin 3:37

It absolutely is part of the problem because on a leader's job description, the only task that should be on there in the job title, and in the job description, I mean, is your job is to take care of the people that are your direct report. That's it. That's your job. Set clear expectations, support them, give them what they need, give them the training they need, give them the tools they need. Your job is to take care of them. A manager's job is to get the job done. But a leader's job isn't that. So the the greatest quote about leadership that I've heard was Richard Branson in an interview, because the interviewer asked him, So, how do you take care of your customers? And he said, Oh, I I don't. I don't take care of my customers, I take care of my people and they take care of the customers. So that's the same thing. A leader's job is to take care of the direct reports. If you support them properly, they will do the job. And they will do it extremely greatly if you provide them with the tools and the support. And your second job as a leader is to produce more leaders. But we confuse the two.

Carl 4:48

You gave an example of the salesperson who then, because of the top person sales, ends up being the leader of the sales department or whatever. Is leadership something that, in your experience, can be naturally taught to somebody that has that boatload of experience in another area? Is it a natural thing to be taught?

Isabelle Fortin 5:08

I think there's a little bit of both. I hear in my line of work, I hear the natural-born leader very often. Oh, yeah, we promoted him because he's a natural-born leader. When you take a closer look, all they're good at is connecting to the other humans. That is what they are good at. That is what they are naturally good at, is connecting to other people. And when you connect to someone on another level, and I'm not, you know, it doesn't have to be woo-woo or isoteric or anything like that, but when you are able to use empathy, when you're able to adapt yourself easily to the person that you're communicating with or that you're in relations with, well, we see these people as natural-born leaders. And that's certainly part of leadership, but lead that's not all it is. You require more than just that. Every single leader has flaws, like every single human being has flaws. And may I say, Carl, thank goodness for that. Imagine how boring life would be if we were all perfect. Come on, it'd be boring as hell. So, yes, there are a lot of people who have natural abilities for leadership. And in most organizations that I've worked with, they are not in management positions.

Carl 6:43

I just want to piggyback on something you said here about the perfection piece. Everyone being perfect would be fun for maybe a day, maybe even a week. But then after that, it would be so excruciatingly boring and painful, and you'd be like, Well, can we just get back to where nobody's perfect, please? Because that's that's where that's what makes life interesting. Uh, it's also also one of the reasons why you know previously I worked in broadcasting because no two days were the same. I I could not work in a in a profession or a factory job where it was the same day in, day out. Here's your gig, here's what you do. Let me ask you this question because we're talking about the difference between management

Human Centred Skills Are Not Soft

Carl 7:25

and leadership. And I and I really want to get your answer to this, and then I want to shift and focus on how this is relevant to the the podcasting space. Management training, leadership training. Do you think that a lot of leadership training or have you experienced that leadership training has been watered down to be more management training, and that leadership training is very unique? What's your experience?

Isabelle Fortin 7:51

How could I say this extremely politely? Hell yes. Because again, like you stated before, because they are confusing the two. If you go to a leadership training and all they talk about is time management, effective structure, and it if that is all they talk about, then you're not in a leadership training, you are in a management training, and they called it leadership because it is sexy. Leadership is how do you deal with people, and you know what? Any if you're a podcaster, if you have a community, whether it's virtual or in person, if you're the CEO of a company, if it doesn't, if you're the head of your family, 100% of your clients and 100% of the people of the the your employees and 100% of your family members and 100% of the people in your community are humans. So leadership is human skills, and we used to call them soft skills, and that is the biggest load of crock I ever heard in my life because there's nothing soft about it. Dealing with another human being is there's what it requires out of one person is there's nothing soft about it. Empathy is not soft, vulnerability is not soft. Back to your question, if you get leadership training and all they teach is task-oriented, yeah, they use the wrong word.

Carl 9:40

They've dropped the ball or they've fallen into the trap that many corporations are either accidentally or intently doing, where they're saying, hey, we have leadership, but really what you have is management and you still have somebody at the top who's deciding, who's gets final say on absolutely everything. And it's not about empowering people, it's about upping the bottom line, it's about making sure our shareholders are happy or whatever the yeah, yeah. I and I and I love the way you answered

Podcast Communities Want Belonging

Carl 10:08

that. I also appreciate the fact that you brought in podcasting as part of your answer because ultimately I'm seeing a shift in the podcasting space where it used to be when you launched podcasts 10 years ago, or if you've been around even longer than that in the podcasting space, that you know what, you did a show, people would follow you, and then they were listening to it. Now, of course, we've got video as a major aspect of podcasting now. But people would follow you and they'd love you, and that's what they did. But now people want more. People want to know what's going on behind the scenes, people want to know what are those screen room conversations, what's the bonus content, what are some of the other things that that are happening that allow me to be a part? They want to feel like they're a part, which then goes back to the leadership piece because podcasters, and a lot of them are business owners first, need to think about this because as they're creating or building out their show, they need to think about leading. Now they're not just leading their team or asking their team for assistance with the show, but it's all of the after-the-show things as well, which is right in line with leadership.

Isabelle Fortin 11:16

Absolutely. And you get leaders everywhere, you get leaders everywhere. I mean, you see, I know we we don't have big families anymore, at least not in our country. We, you know, we rarely meet people who has four, five, or six kids. But go back two generations, and even among the siblings, there was a leader, and it wasn't necessarily always the oldest. And there was a leader, a natural leader amongst the siblings in certain situations, and in other situations, another one took over. And that just happened organically. But it people are looking to be a part of something, and that whether it's a podcast community or whether it's it's a corporation or whether it's the physical, you know, community where you live, people want to be a part, they want a sense of belonging. And that's your job as a leader is to listen to what they want and see, okay, is that aligned with what I'm willing to give? And if it is, then just tap into that. And if it isn't, then just you know, reframe what you want and get to what you want.

Vision First Then Empower Your People

Carl 12:27

Makes sense. I'm glad you share this because it leads me to my next question, which is if I'm a if I'm a podcaster and I'm I'm I'm listening to our conversation, which by the way, Isabel Fortin is my guest today. What are some key things that if I'm thinking of building up my community and I'm the leader or I'm bringing in team leads or whatever you want to call them to help me facilitate that community, what are some things that I should that I should be doing or that should be top of mind as I'm doing that?

Isabelle Fortin 12:55

Well, I think that the first thing for yourself uh is knowing what you want. What is it that you're that you want to build and why? Because that's going to keep you focused on that. So if you say, hey, listen, I I want to keep on doing the podcast thing and I'm loving it, and but I really truly don't want to show what my studio looks like and what I do on the weekends and who I married to, and you know, what's uh if that I'm learning salsa, or I really don't want that, then you need to first have clarity for yourself so that you know what you're building. So if you don't want all of these things, maybe there's another way to create the same kind of community where it's extremely just podcast oriented, or whether, you know, if you have a podcast on football, then it'll be extremely football-oriented. And you can start making comments about other people's games or whatever. The second thing is you need to surround yourself with people, and your job as the leader is to share with you the clearest vision possible of what you want to build, and then let them do what they're going to do. Empower them to be who they are, empower them to bring their ideas. Whether it's you're trying to build a community or you're the CEO of a Fortune 500, the worst thing that you can do is force people to leave their best ideas in the car before they meet you, right? Because if you're not open to listening to suggestions, then learning is over and growth is over. If you're not willing to have people ask you huge air quotes on stupid, okay? So stupid questions, because I truly don't believe there are stupid questions. Well, then learning is done. So you need to first have vision and then be extremely good and being able to share that vision in the clearest way possible.

Communicate In The Listener’s Language

Carl 15:06

So articulation and a very good way of expressing yourself. So speaking, you need to be able to communicate your ideas if you're in that leadership space then.

Isabelle Fortin 15:16

And you know what it is about communication, Carl, is that we all do that. I'll be the first one to admit that I do that, is we think that communication is about us sharing ideas. Yeah, I have a point of view and I want to share it, and I want everybody to understand it. Okay, it is part of it, and this it is an important part, but it's not the most important part. The most important part is if I'm Italian and you only speak English and I only speak Italian, well, I'd better learn English. The most important thing in communication is adapting your language to the way that the other person understands the world and sees the world. So when you're negotiating anything with or you're a boss or you're trying to negotiate with your four-year-old so that they eat their broccoli, you have to make what you're trying to create, even if it's their own for their own good. I'm referring to the broccoli in the four-year-old, you need to bring them with you. So what's in it for them? And that's where people go wrong in communication. It's not about you. It it it's if you want people to join you in something, you have to bring, you have to speak their language and bring them with you. So what is it, what is it about what you want that's good for them? You know, I was just gonna say, and and you know, with the four-year-old and the broccoli, bribe works perfectly.

Carl 16:46

I have an answer to that one too. But it sounds like listening is a huge part of this. I mean, it's not just about me and what I want in my opinion and my view. Yeah, my vision, mission, goals, and values, that's important. But I need to hear your feedback as well.

Isabelle Fortin 17:00

Yeah, and you know what? Maybe in my feedback, just by bouncing ideas in a non-judgmental way, maybe you're gonna even get clearer on what you want to build. If I offer you resistance and you go, okay, so Isabel is offering me resistance and I'm kind of not enjoying the resistance. Well, maybe you need to either set clearer boundaries or you need to set feedback, is where the joy is. And if we go back to the beginning of this this conversation, if it was beautiful, 80 degrees, I don't know if all of your listeners are Americans, but beautiful, like 25 degrees Celsius, 80 some odd degrees Fahrenheit, blue skies, one day, wonderful. One week, oh my god, this is great. Three weeks, like, oh, I'm in paradise. Six weeks, when the hell is it gonna rain? Right? Or all like that because it is in the imperfection. That's where the joy is. So it's the same thing. When you're trying to build something and somebody's offering you resistance, they're going against you. They're they're bringing you either the opportunity to be clearer about what you want, or they're giving you extremely great ideas, or they're telling you that they're they're not the right fit for you, which all three are extremely positive.

Healthy Resistance Clarifies Boundaries

Carl 18:24

I think that's the thing that we don't like to hear is that you're not a fit for me. But even in business, I have learned, and and I've learned this in the podcasting space too, especially leveraging pod match, that not everyone's a fit. And when I was starting my business, I would say, Oh my goodness, how can I serve this person? And I would try so hard to find a way to serve someone that wasn't even remotely a fit. And I remember it was so exhausting because I would I would lower my prices, I would lower my standards, I would, you know what I mean? Like there's so many things that, and I think that's true for a lot of entrepreneurs. They'll do that because they need that few extra thousand dollars or whatever it is, and they know that that's going to lead to the next best, but it's not serving, it's not serving you, it's not serving them. I had an aha moment, I had an epiphany about six months ago, and it was with a colleague, uh not with a colleague, rather, it was with uh an individual who came to me as a referral. She seemed like the perfect fit, but she wasn't ready for what I had. And it wasn't me that pointed it out because again, I was still getting in this you know, caught in the weeds of how can I make this happen for this individual? She's the one that said to me, She said, I don't think I'm ready for you. I want what you have, but I'm not ready. And I realized, hmm, I've been I've been asking or working for the really focusing on the wrong things. That's what I really should be focusing on is empowering this person or figuring out how I can best serve this person and not how I can drag this person along on a journey they're not ready to be on.

Isabelle Fortin 20:07

And it also applies

Fit Checks For Guests And Clients

Speaker 2 20:09

to the podcasting community on PodMatch, where we met, either you have a pre-interview or you have a pre-qualifying form. I have stopped and I have learned that the wrong way or the hard way, and not the wrong, there are no wrong ways to learn things, but the hard way that when a host has neither, I don't want to be a guest. Because I want to know, am I a right fit for you? Sure, but are you a right fit for what I'm doing? Are you a right fit for my image, for my branding, for what I'm trying to accomplish in the world? And if there are no ways to communicate and see, hey, listen, and not only based on just a three-paragraph text, there is no way I'm going to appear on someone's podcast if I haven't listened to at least two episodes. And not 10 minutes of each episode in the entire episodes. How is the person reacting when something when they make a mistake? Are they laughing? Are they because humour is a big part of of who I am? If they're not able to laugh, hey, they can have a gazillion listeners. If life isn't a little bit funny for them, they're just not a right fit for me. So it's important to do your homework as a podcast host, as a podcast guest, and if you're trying to build any kind of community out there, because if not, you're just going to water down the quality of the community that you're building, and that'd be sad.

Carl 21:39

Yeah, 100%. And I and I like how you've you've paralleled, you know, what you've learned in leadership, you know, not just in the military, but as you've been out there working with corporate America and how, you know, this is something that's relevant as the podcast world evolves and focuses on community, that we need to think about these aspects of leadership. So oh my goodness. Uh Isabelle, I could talk to you all the live long day. So it gives me another reason to firstly because we speak the same language, which is Canadian, uh just just saying, and you're just up the road for me by about two and a half hours. I'm in the Thousand Islands and you're you're uh in the Montreal area. We could do this over coffee or a beaver tail or a Putin or something like that.

Isabelle Fortin 22:24

Oh, that would be so lovely. That'd be so lovely. Anytime. I'll drive halfway.

Carl 22:30

Okay, we'll meet you halfway in somewhere. We'll meet in Cornwall. We could we could do that. We could do

Where To Find Isabel And Final Thought

Carl 22:36

that. I've I've spent some time in Cornwall. You have something to pass along to the audience though. How can people best connect with you?

Isabelle Fortin 22:42

Best connect with me. There are two ways. My website is against theordinary.org. So against the ordinary.org. And my name is Isabelle Fortin. You can find me on LinkedIn. There are several of us, but only one with purple hair.

Carl 22:58

Unless it's an old photo. Really old photo.

Isabelle Fortin 23:01

No, that my f I made sure that the the the picture on LinkedIn had purple hair.

Carl 23:06

Alright. That's good. That's good to know because when you're giving people directions, you need to make sure they haven't nothing's changed.

Isabelle Fortin 23:13

Or if there has been a change that you're Well, unless they're looking for unless they're listening to this podcast 2037, maybe my hair isn't purple anymore.

Carl 23:22

Different colour, perhaps. But anyways, Isabelle, it's been great. Before I turn you loose, uh to help organizations and who knows, maybe even other podcasters dive into the leadership and see how it's going to work for them. I'll give you the final thought.

Isabelle Fortin 23:36

Nothing of significance is ever accomplished alone.

Carl 23:40

There's some power in that. Isabelle Fortin, thank you so much for being my guest today.

Isabelle Fortin 23:44

Thank you.

Thanks To The Team And Closing

Carl 23:45

And hey, thank you for being a part of the show today. So glad you could join us. Believe it or not, I can't work this magic by myself. So thanks to my amazing team, our audio engineer Don Carrillo, our sonic branding genius Kenton Dolborowski, and the person who works the arms, all of our arms actually, our project manager and my trusty assistant Julovelle Tiongco, known to us here simply as July. If you like what you heard today, let us know. You can leave us a comment or review or even send us a voice note. And if you really liked it, we hope you'll share it with your friends and your colleagues. If you don't like what you heard today, well, please feel free to share it with your enemies. And if you know of someone who would make a great guest on the show, let us know about it. You can get in touch with us by going to our show notes where all of our connection points are there, including the links to our website, LinkedIn, and Facebook as well. And if you're ready to be a guest on podcasts, or even start your own show, let's have a conversation. We'll show you the simplest way to get into the podcasting space and rock it. Because after all, we're podcast solutions made simple. Catch you again next time.